GAtwood
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Is your team in shape? Another perspective... - 2008/03/23 19:03
I've found that some players want to feel like they are being ran just for the sake of running them. In fact, some of them don't believe they are in good shape unless they are lined up and sprinted again & again. I've found some feel this way despite evidence that they are in good shape.
One of my core principles is that playing basketball should be fun. So I don't like doing things in practice that seem like "punishment." While I was coaching at the Jr High level, I made a conscious decision to avoid running my teams just for the sake of running. No suicides. I got my player conditioning done thru activities (sometimes drills) that more often than not placed a ball in their hands so they were also working on ball handling, passing & dribble skills. They were doing lots of sprints, but they didn't necessarily recognize that I was conditioning them.
I have my "focus sprints" where the whole team runs when there's too much goofing off, poor effort, not listening, etc. My personal favorite is "8's." I have them sprint side line to side line and must touch each sideline 8 times, in under 40 seconds. I want my guards & wings under 35 seconds. Some teams run more of these than others. I tend to have teams do "8's" in groups of 2 at time.
I also usually end my practices with the same pressure free throw (everyone on the base line, 1 shooter at a time) drill that the Portland T'Blazers use which I found linked in this thread. Except we only run once down & back on misses, but we also don't shoot beter than 70% as a team, so I'm sure we run at least as much as a pro team.
We almost always play 4 quarters of full court pressure defense. Obviously you have to be in great shape to play that style and remain in the game. I use a lot of players. This past season as the JV coach, I had to rotate 3 players in the 5 spot constantly. 2 out of the 3 (big girls) couldn't go more than about 3 game minutes without needing a rest.
In the absence of a definative fitness test such as I've seen in this thread, I've always used the measurement of how long they can play our full court pressure D as the indicator of individual fitness. My assessment is that I do a good job of getting about 10 out of 12 in real good condition. With the other 2, there's usually some limiting factor which enhibits their conditioning such as over weight, shin splints, or the occassional player who just will not push hard.
At the end of each season, I hand out a SASE envelope to each player that contains a survey form which I do not require a name on it. I use it as a tool to help me become a better coach. This season, my first at a head JV coach at the HS level, I was hit with about 6 responses that indicated they thought practices were not hard enough and that they were not in as good condition as they could have been. I should add that these 6 or so all played for a coach in Jr High who does run them just to run them and does use suicides.
At least one of these players spent the 1st half of the season "dogging" it in sprints, but did finish very strong, like a "switch" had been flipped in her head. My assistant and I took her off to the side several times to talk about effort in practice. But when she finally came around, it wasn't from us pushing her, it was of her own resolve.
So now I'm wondering what to do to address this. I'm leaning toward running them more just for the sake of running them in early season. Maybe even get them out on the track a couple times a week like I've seen in this thread.
I'm thinking, even if they actually are in good shape the way I've been conditioning them up to now, if they believe they are in better shape, then we are better off at least psychologically.
This is a rambling post. I guess I'm just wondering if others have had similar experiences. Or if my observations here conjur up any relevant thoughts? Just trying to get better.
Post edited by: coach7, at: 2008/03/23 19:07
Post edited by: coach7, at: 2008/03/23 19:09
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David E
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Re:Is your team in shape? Another perspective... - 2008/03/24 17:10
Good post.Here's another long one.
I have been coaching at the middle school level for the last 13 years and during that time have cut back on running just for the sake of running until now it is virtually nil. Prior to my middle school experience I was a HS varsity assistant for a guy who ran the players like crazy. We were very successful and I thought that was part of the reason.
My first few seasons in middle school our teams were so bad that any running would have been pointless so we just focused on improving our skills. We couldn’t even get any conditioning in fastbreak drills because we couldn’t handle the ball at any speed at all. By the fourth year we were starting to get pretty good, though, and I was reevaluating my philosophy on sprints. In 2000 I decided that we had the best skills in our league and the only way we would lose was if the other team was in better shape. That year I ran us very hard, just for running.
It worked, we won the league, but I later decided that was a mistake. Now all our conditioning is with a ball. We have won our league each of the past two years, finished second the season before that and have the best record in the league over the past 10 years. I can’t remember the last time we just ran some sprints. Practice time is just too short and valuable to “waste” it on pure running.
Any running we do is the result of losing some competitive drill, which make up the majority of our practices. That’s usually just a quick down & back or three trips, just to acknowledge the difference between winners and losers. Sometimes we do pushups. I know some people are into the “winners run” thing, but I have never bought in to that. I don’t like to save a running drill for the end of practice, either, like the Trailblazers drill. I try to get all our highest-speed stuff done in the first two-thirds of practice. I don’t want a “saving it for the end” mindset.
Our style of play is to run and play pressure defense but I’m not really too concerned about conditioning. I sub so quickly that fatigue rarely becomes a problem. I had 10 players on this year’s team. The top six played 1:30-2:00 at a time and the bottom four played 0:45-1:00 at a time. I think it would be physically impossible for us to play three minutes at the pace and intensity level I want, regardless of conditioning. That’s why I kept it short. I didn’t want anybody to have to worry about pacing themselves. They are in shape, but it’s a different kind of shape that if I was asking them to play the entire game.
I also use the anonymous feedback letters at the end of the season. Occasionally somebody will write that we should run more, but that’s rare. Where the players think I’m crazy is my using practice time for a dynamic warmup. They still think that static stretching is the only way to prepare, because that’s all they have done and seen before getting to me. This summer I’m going to experiment with a dynamic warmup with a ball, a la Kevin Sutton.
That’s my take on conditioning at the present time. Nothing is set in stone and I’m always looking for new ideas. My main thing is, I’m coaching middle school and I need to be developing skills. Conditioning is more about winning the next game.
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GAtwood
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WOW! all sounds so familiar - 2008/03/24 19:20
"I have been coaching at the middle school level for the last 13 years and during that time have cut back on running just for the sake of running until now it is virtually nil."
Way less experience than you, but very similar story. I concluded early on that running just to run was a waste of valuable time.
"My first few seasons in middle school our teams were so bad that any running would have been pointless so we just focused on improving our skills. We couldn’t even get any conditioning in fastbreak drills because we couldn’t handle the ball at any speed at all. By the fourth year we were starting to get pretty good, though,..."
This was exactly my situation in Jr High. My first season I was so inexperienced that I just ran a 2-3 zone on defense. On offense I tried to put in offense (flex) I was observing and learning from the local High School. I didn't recognize my kids didn't have the offensive skills to make a cutting & screening offense work properly. Honestly, the local HS didn't either, as they were getting the same unskilled players comming out of the Jr High I was at. I was spending 20-30 minutes in each practice running the offense to try to generate points. Then in games, we'd get maybe 4-6 points in a game off of running the set correctly.
I study like mad, constantly reading basketball books and web sites, go to clinics, worked some camps. I coach girls, and became very interested in good form and proper movement skills after learning about the much higher incidence of traumatic knee injuries with female players. I believe all of that immersion thru studying has excellerated my knowledge & development as a coach.
In my second year I ran no offensive sets, though as the season progressed, we did put in some quick hitters. We ran practice like a skill development camp, except no one standing in lines, and we scrimmaged every day. We preached, attack the basket every chance you get, and take open shots if they are in your range. We also switched to pressuring man to man defense.
By the third year we won our little middle school league, and we were now dominating lesser skilled teams who we used to struggle against- win or lose. Against the larger schools who used to blow us out of the gym, we were now right there with them. We'd usually get beat, but sometimes we'd win, and most important we were always competetive.
"Any running we do is the result of losing some competitive drill, which make up the majority of our practices."
Our Jr High has two boys teams and 2 girls teams (6th, 7th combined, & 8th). The other girls coach always starts his practice with the whole team runs 15-20 laps around the edges of the court. His kids are chit-chatting & giggling. And his players would hassle mine, and ask me why we don't do that?
We also start our practices with a dynamic warm up, and I often used to find some of them on the floor static stretching before practice begins. I have had success changing the mind set of the non believers by bringing in the research data I found in this web site and reading it to them.
After the DWU, we almost always start practice with what I call "U-Conn." When I picked up this drill, Geno Aureima was using it to start his practices. We get this done in about 7-8 minutes.
I have them pair up w/ by position (guards W/guards, posts w/posts). Each pair has a ball. Coach runs with one of them if it's an odd number. They start in a single paired up line behind one end line. We go 4 sets, 3 times thru each set, and it's a full court down & back sprint on each rep. That's 24 times down & back. I let them rest briefly to get their wind back between each set of 3.
1st set- they are just tossing the ball back & fourth as they sprint down the court (6-8 feet apart), sprint ends with a lay up. When they come back (right away) the other kids finishes with a lay up. They can't travel, and the ball can't touch the floor, 3 times thru then 2nd set.
2nd set- as they sprint down the court they are bounce passing the ball to each other, ends with a lay up & then they go back the other way & the other kid in the pair makes the layup. 3 times thru, then 3rd set.
3rd set- player #1 outlets from behind the end line to player #2 who is at f/t line extended. After outlet pass, #1 sprints hard to fill the outside lane on same side she just outleted to. #2 sprint dribbles to elbow on opposite side of lane runner and #2 must pass thru the center circle with the dribble. #2 jump stops at elbow and makes a bounce pass to #1 who finishes with a lay up. Then they go back opposite way, opposite finish, 3 times thru.
4th set- Long pass ahead to sprinting team mate. #1 outlets from in front of the basket. #2 is prepositioned at about the close old hash mark area. When #2 sees #1 cock her arm back to throw she takes off. In this last set the thrower doesn't run all the way down court behind her pass. Instead she just sprints over to to the opposite far side hash mark to become the next pass receiver. #2 finishes with a lay up if the pass was good. We emphasize a high arcing throw that can be ran under, and the throw at tyhe basket not down the side line.
When we are finished they are tired and we have worked on ball skills, passing and and lay ups. AS the season progresses we create more challenges. If they drop a pass/make a bad pass it's extra running. I like the opportunity to force them to focus on executing while fatigued. Sometimes we will go 4 reps of each set. ANd we also change the direction of the rotation every couple days so they are having to finish with both hands. I like to have the guards at the front of the line to start, other wise the posts slow them down and they aren't working as hard. Still the guards will start to get bunched up behind a set of posts, and I will tell them to jump in front of a slower couple. It ends up looking much like the other coaches round and round running, except my players are working on skills with the basketball while conditioning.
"Our style of play is to run and play pressure defense but I’m not really too concerned about conditioning. I sub so quickly that fatigue rarely becomes a problem. I had 10 players on this year’s team. The top six played 1:30-2:00 at a time and the bottom four played 0:45-1:00 at a time. I think it would be physically impossible for us to play three minutes at the pace and intensity level I want, regardless of conditioning."
We don't run as much as you on offense. That's likely why I can get about 3+ minutes out of most of them. We always want to get it up fast, but we usually only get fast break points off steals, or 1-2 of my little guards leaking out early. But we do pressure the ball all over the court, and I do liberally substitute.
" also use the anonymous feedback letters at the end of the season. Occasionally somebody will write that we should run more, but that’s rare."
You are the first coach other than me I've heard say he uses the feed back letters. When I was at the Jr High, it was the same as you say- occassionaly a kid would say she felt we needed to run to condition more. This past season was my first as JV head coach (Varsity assistant last yr). ANd like I said, I must have gotten 6 independent comments that said we need to do more conditioning sprints.
Maybe I just need to educate them better, like I did by reading them the DWU research data, that worked, I never found them stretching on their own pre practice after that. Maybe it's my mistake to assume they will realize I am putting in plenty of conditioning work, but since it doesn't look like what they are used to, they don't see the value.
"Where the players think I’m crazy is my using practice time for a dynamic warmup. They still think that static stretching is the only way to prepare, because that’s all they have done and seen before getting to me."
Yes, I can relate. I've been using a DWU for about 5 years now. I've incorporated bands around their ankles for monster walks and slides. I also throw in some body weight squats and walking lunges and I use that as an opportunity not just for strength building, but to look for and correct form/technique flaws to help them become better athletes while hopefully reducing the chance of injury.
Last year after an abreviated DWU, I had the whole team doing Vern Gambetta's Leg Circuit twice a week= Bodyweight Squat x 20 reps, Bodyweight Lunge x 20 reps (10 each leg), Bodyweight Step-up x 20 reps (10 each leg), Jump Squat x 10. Done in less than 90 seconds, rest 120 seconds, go again, we'd go 3 sets. Their legs are wobbly by the time they are squat jumping, so the order is important as you wouldn't want them squating or lunging on wobbly legs. Much to my surprise, most of them loved (it's very hard)doing Vern's leg circuit. The post's would grumble.
Post edited by: coach7, at: 2008/03/24 21:18
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David E
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Re:WOW! all sounds so familiar - 2008/03/25 15:17
It does sound familiar.
I was spending 20-30 minutes in each practice running the offense to try to generate points. Then in games, we'd get maybe 4-6 points in a game off of running the set correctly.
That's why I decided sometime back to major in transition offense. We don't run any continuities, because they break down too easily at our level. We do use a few end-of-break quick hitters that involve maybe one screen and one cut, then we just play motion.
I coach girls, and became very interested in good form and proper movement skills after learning about the much higher incidence of traumatic knee injuries with female players.
I also coach girls, and the injury prevention thing was why I got into the dynamic warmup. I had one ACL injury on my team and our high school had two during a four-year period. I knew there was information out there and if I didn't do something I was going to kick myself if another injury came along.
We do a lot of the bodyweight exercises you mentioned, along with balance training and landing technique as part of our warmup. I have Gambetta's latest book, but we haven't done the entire leg circuit. I do want to be able to practice when we're finished!
we scrimmaged every day. We preached, attack the basket every chance you get, and take open shots if they are in your range.
We almost never scrimmage 5v5, unless we are working on end-of-game situations. That is another thing the girls complain about in the letters. We do play advantage/disadvantage in transition almost every day from 1v2/2v1 up to 5v4. I think we get a lot more out of that than 5v5 because that's the game for us.
Taking the good early shot is also something I have come around to. I used to always have to have the ball reversed before an outside shot, but now I'll take any good shot.
Our Jr High has two boys teams and 2 girls teams (6th, 7th combined, & 8th).
That is the same for us. I coach both our girls' teams, though.
I have had success changing the mind set of the non believers by bringing in the research data I found in this web site and reading it to them.
I have tried that, but they (as a whole) just don't believe. They do what I ask them to do, and do it well, they just think I'm (and the data I present) wrong.
We don't run as much as you on offense. That's likely why I can get about 3+ minutes out of most of them. We always want to get it up fast, but we usually only get fast break points off steals, or 1-2 of my little guards leaking out early. But we do pressure the ball all over the court, and I do liberally substitute.
We do run on everything offensively; there is nothing sweeter than scoring less than five seconds after the other team has scored. However, I have found that it is defense that takes the most out of us rather than offense. Our fullcourt man takes a lot of energy and we just can't sustain the pressure and denials for very long without fresh people.
Almost all our games this season were blowouts so we played much of the time in halfcourt man. Players could easily go for three minutes in those situations. There were a few times when my bottom five played the entire fourth quarter with no fatigue issues. Of course, they were just playing halfcourt defense.
I'm sure teams that walk it up, play 2-3 zone, and never sub have vastly different conditioning issues. I don't want to experience them, though. 
Post edited by: David E, at: 2008/03/25 15:19
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coachmccormick
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Re:WOW! all sounds so familiar - 2008/03/25 18:49
Funny. I went to Santa Clarita yesterday to watch Robert Dos Remedios work with the men's basketball and women's volleyball teams at College of the Canyons. Coach Dos has won the NSCA Strength Coach of the Year award, writes for Men's Health and speaks at Perform Better clinics, so he is well-regarded.
We were talking about pre-season basketball workouts. He said he does lots of 100s and suicides. Then, the coach makes them pass a 5-mile run through the hills in early October, when it's 90-degrees outside in Santa Clarita. He said he's caught because he knows basketball players need anaerobic conditioning, but if the coach is going to use a 5-mile test to decide who gets a uniform, he feels he has to prepare them for the test.
So, the question becomes: prepare players for the basketball season or prepare players for a random test that the coach picks because he does not understand basketball conditioning?
Many colleges do the same thing and they question the toughness of those who cannot pass arbitrary 2-mile or 5-mile tests. But, what's the point?
I have never heard a kid complain about not running enough. My team this year was probably in better shape than any team we played. In several games, the girls noticed the other team looking tired. We had no pre-season workouts, though five girls played volleyball where we did zero running, and we ran no more than 5 suicides all season.
My favorite conditioning drill is 3v3/no dribble.
If kids do not believe they are in good enough shape, maybe try the bleep test (next thread) or another such test which is more basketball specific. Or, do timed basketball drills early in the season and late in the season to show improvement.
As for teams that run laps. almost nothing makes me think less of a coach than one who starts practice with laps. It's a colossal waste of time and illustrates a coach who does not know what he is doing and is not prepared for practice so he buys more time with laps.
My team asked if they could run laps once. I said we would never run laps because it has nothing to do with basketball. They never asked again. I liked my team because they often asked questions. They wondered why I did things that no other coach had done and why I did not do things they were used to doing. And, each time I had an answer based on basketball and understanding training, whereas nobody ever explained to them why they stretched or why they ran laps or whatever. So, in many ways, once I educated them, they accepted my word and did what was asked of them.
There are, however, plenty of ways to make practice hard and remain functional. I like doing 20 push-ups, 20 squats and 20 sit-ups for 5 sets each as fast as possible. I met a coach who did a sprint-push-up pyramid. They sprinted to one end and did 10 push-ups. Then up and back with 20 push-ups. 3 sprints/30 push-ups, etc until they worked to 50 push-ups and then back down.
Conditioning is a part of basketball training and there are many ways to do it. The key is managing the available time and resources and making the conditioning basketball-specific.
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